Despite the name, the writer is not Catholic — Baptist, I think. But anyway, his views on the topic are similar to mine. Unfortunately, when we focus on the issue, we are focussing on the issue. It may seem as if those of us who oppose same-sex marriage hate those who undertake it. But when we consider people as people, we wish them well, even if we disagree with them about the issue.
Unfortunately, there are also people who do not wish same-sex couples well, people whose disagreement on the question of public police is accompanied by malice toward those on the other side, and they often grab the headlines. But it is important to realize that the haters are not the only opponents of same-sex marriage, and it is important for all of us, on every side, to respect the humanity of our opponents — and for those of us who are Christians to include them among the neighbors whom we are commanded to love.
21 comments:
Has Our Lord and His Son Jesus Christ ever spoken to forward this? I think, the priests of the heretic, so-called pandemonoini are the real holders of this truth! Rven though I don´t like same-sex marriages neither, to me,christian Arabs are currently more important. Propz Pilgrim
Equality would be nice. lol
To be honest, i think it's only a matter of time before same-sex marriages are legal in lots of places.
Personally, i don't mind whether it's same-sex 'marriage' or 'civil unions'. But gays deserve the rights that everyone else automatically have just cos they're 'normal'.
love
Forgot to say, that's all IMO! :)
I don't think the Lord has ever said anything directly and explicitly on the topic. We have the words of Jesus in response to the question of divorce, in which he quotes the Genesis accounts which show what was the Father's will from the beginning.
The issue of same-sex marriage is one which is being decided incrementally in this country. In France it may not be of such immediate importance. The condition and future of the Christian Arabs is certainly important, but I'm not sure that we in the West have much influence on the Arab populations and governments in the matter. But by all means do whatever you think may help.
@ Mirrorboy — You may well be right about what is likely to happen. I've presented my view on the marriage issue in comments on other blogs at the time of Prop 8 in California and thereafter. Maybe sometime I'll decide to post something about it on this blog.
My "Response to Howard" of January 30 —
http://naturgesetz-takecourage.blogspot.com/2009/01/response-to-howard.html
— is more generally about sexual morality, but it has its implications for same-sex marriage. It is more explicitly stated in "Image and Likeness of God" from November 6, 2008 —
http://naturgesetz-takecourage.blogspot.com/2008/11/image-and-likeness-of-god.html
But these are arguments about the morality of sex and marriage. therefore they do not apply to secular law. The secular arguments about what the law should say are apparently only in comments elsewhere.
(Sorry, I haven't figured out how to make hyperlinks in comments. Highlighting the text and pressing Ctrl+Shift+A does not give me a box in which to past the url.)
Keep in mind, ng, when you tell someone they do not deserve a right accorded to others simply because of their sexual orientation, you are wishing them ill. Saying you "wish them well" is of little to no comfort.
An analogy:
I come to your house and rob you. I don't have anything personal against you, I just don't think you deserve what you have because you are __________. Don't be upset, though! I wish you well.
@ Mr. HCI — Although I gave Mirrorboy some hints on where to find some things I wrote, I did not intend for this to be about the merits of same-sex marriage per se. So suffice it to say here that I do not agree that it is a question of equal rights, because it seems to me that same sex marriage is a different thing from opposite sex marriage. Please reserve further discussion of that issue for another post. I'm trying to be irenic here.
Or let me put it this way: however wrongful one may consider opposition to same-sex marriage, please understand that the opponents 1.) do not intend to wrong you or deny your rights by their opposition, and 2.) do not believe that they are wronging you or denying your rights by their opposition. I think that should put their opposition — and them — in a different light from what it would be if they were actually so malevolent as to try to deny you what they understood and rightfully yours. Mistaken, perhaps, but not evil.
I just reread the piece and the accompanying comments and one hit the nail on that head. It's patronizing (and self-aggrandizing).
"Ain't I great? I can still wish my friends happiness for their immoral relationship and marriage that I wish was illegal."
In addition, the piece has a smarmy tone that I found very offputting.
In response to your response: I have discussed the issue of rights with many an opponent of same-sex marriage and an overwhelming number indicate they just don't care if we are affected negatively, even when it is pointed out exactly how we are affected. That is malevolence, no matter how they try pretty it up with talk of God and baby making.
RE: Christian Arabs; Joe, I am more involved in this subject since half my family are greek catholics from Lebanon, who fled the country at the start of the civil war in 1978. Maybe I´ll do a post on this later on my blog. :-) Good Morning, Pilgrim
@ Pilgrim — That does give you a connection to the issue that most of us lack. We all should recognize the problem, but your interest is naturally much deeper.
@ Mr. HCI — I would hope that people would care about the effects even if they don't think changing the marriage laws is the right solution. It's too bad that some people don't care.
Good Morning Joe! At first I have a question. How can I explain the rites of our church to a merely agnostic member of the Church of England? ...As for what you asked, I have to say,Ste left me a thx-note w/his celly-no., to stay in contact, since he didn´t have my email-addy.I will ask him asap, which means after tomorrow, when I write my physics term paper. That ´kay w/you? Propz Pilgrim
P.S., just realised, that tomorrow is Ascension, so the term paper is on monday. Maybe I can contact Ste in this long weekend.
@ Pilgrim — Thanks for agreeing to ask Ste for me.
As for explaining the Catholic rites to an agnostic C of E member, I'm going to need to think about that for a bit, and I may come up with some questions to clarify just what the person knows and doesn't, if possible.
Thanks again.
Would ya plz anwer me?
When I have time to compose an adequate answer.
Pilgrim, now I think I understand your question better than I did when I first read it.
Here's a synopsis. We offer Masses for people after their death because the Mass is the highest form of prayer available to us — the saving action of Jesus himself which he offered of the Cross now made present to us, and in which we are able to join because we are members of his body, the Church, through baptism. We want to offer this most effective prayer for our beloved dead because we believe that everyone who dies loving God but not perfectly — i.e., still has some degree of unhealthy attachment to creatures contrary to God's will — must be purified of that imperfection after death; and we believe that our prayer can, through God's mercy, lighten the burden of that purification, helping them pass from that state into the joy of heaven. Furthermore, since God is eternal, he has known, even during the person's lifetime, of these Masses and our other prayers which we offer after his death. Therefore they can also help to obtain for him the grace he needs to die with the love of God which is necessary for eternal salvation.
I hope this is what you wanted. If not, please let me know.
And here are some excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM), which give a fuller treatment of some of what I've written.
1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life.
I. The Particular Judgment
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609
IN BRIEF
1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.
1052 "We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ's grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies" (Paul VI, CPG # 28).
…
1054 Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.
1055 By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.
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1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (⇒ 1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (⇒ Mt 19:26).
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And a further excerpt, on the Mass:
IN BRIEF
…
1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church's life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.
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1409 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, that is, of the work of salvation accomplished by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, a work made present by the liturgical action.
1410 It is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. and it is the same Christ, really present under the species of bread and wine, who is the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice.
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1414 As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead and to obtain spiritual or temporal benefits from God.
…
Goodness me! Comments that go way beyond the original post! And I thought blogging was part of my leisure activity!
Same sex marriage - if you see marriage as a religious sacrament, then many religious people may have objections. On a purely humanist basis, there can be no logical objection at all. End of story - surely? Given that government in the US is meant to be completely isolated from religious affiliation, I wonder on what basis any objections can be considered in any form of debate or vote.
On the part of the Requiem Mass; when my partner was killed in Iraq, it was the Mass which allowed me to say goodbye, and to gain a sense of peace and closure. Of course, at that point my faith hadn't taken such a battering, in case I am the Agnostic Anglican to whom Pilgrim refers. Actually, I don't think I am agnostic at all - more that I have lost confidence in any of the denominations' sincerity and accuracy in their approach to the Almighty: I think it is mmy time to spend a little while in the wilderness and find my own way.
G =]
@ Doomed But Cheerful — No, Gurney, you aren't the person Pilgrim had in mind.
For people with religiously based moral objections to homosexual conduct, that is certainly a motive for opposition to same-sex marriage. But there is also a reason which is not religious. Since this post is not about the merits of the question, I'm resisting the impulse to state it here. Remind me to post on it later.
As for your possible "wilderness" experience, that's not a bad idea. I'd only like to add that maybe another aspect of the time you spend there is giving God the chance to speak to you.
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